Sue's Blog has often referred to hydro-electric potential as liquid gold - Sunday the Winnipeg Free Press called it "Black gold on tap".
In either case an interesting strategy is emerging by Ontario and Quebec on these valuable resources to the west and east of them.
The story out of Manitoba talks about the great potential of these untapped hydro resources in that province - similar to Newfoundland and Labrador and the installed capacity of this clean energy in that province. What do you think is being looked at there? EXPORT to Ontario and Quebec - the same way Newfoundland and Labrador is looking at going.
Quebec and Ontario is also pushing for the feds to construct an east west grid so they can capture all the clean energy from our two provinces at Canada's expense - and build industry at ours.
Now BC uses it's hydro for industry - and the economy demonstrates such - Alberta uses it's energy resources for themselves as does Ontario and Quebec - the two other provinces fortunate to have the resource are being used to supply Central Canada - and I would argue the economies of both our provinces reflect that policy.
Manitoba Premier Gary Doer and Premier Danny Williams are being intellectually snookered by Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty and Quebec Premier Jean Charest at a level which is - frankly embarrassing. And you bet Energy Probe's Tom Adams is encouraging the export of Manitoba's power too.
Quebec only exports 8% of their power - that's only because they have all the riches from Labrador's Upper Churchill otherwise they would be importing and - Ontario is a net importer as is British Columbia. They all use their power for industrial development.
Make no mistake about it - Quebec and Ontario have a joint strategy - they take what they want from the feds - a national energy grid - and then they take the clean power from Newfoundland and Labrador and Manitoba with our leaders' blessing.
If this strategy is successful both Newfoundland and Labrador and Manitoba will suffer through "have-not" status for many generations to come.
24 comments:
imagine manitoba or newfoundland deciding to develop their own major energy source without the approval of ontario or quebec, how brash! to think that either would have the audacity to ignore the "super powers" of our country. which brings me to my point. whomever believes that this country is a democratic one ought not to look no further than our "treasured" house of commons. when 2 provinces together(manitoba and newfoundland) have less than 10 percent of the total seats in the house as compared to the other 2(ontario and quebec) which hold nearly 60 percent, what are the odds of getting any funding from ottawa to develop any type of mega energy project that doesnt benefit at least 1 of the 2 "super powers."
until there is a more representative government of the people in this country, we will continue to suffer economically under the rule of ontario and quebec.
it's not inconceivable to think that some time in the future ontario may opt to form their own political party. do the math. if every province and territory in canada united and elected all members of the same stripe, we would still be unable to defeat the "super powers" what a country!
What rubbish! What mindless blather! A full boatload of Codswhallop! Look, the central issue is this. Your electrical capacity is locked in.
If you want to go it ALONE (like an business owner/board would have to decide/execute) through the process of unlocking it though land transmission, corridors, land purchase, expropriations, municipal and provincial hearings (just wait till you step foot in Quebec!), a kazillion citizen protests arising from NIMBY, fine. I hope to see your first joule in Ontario sometime towards the end of the next millenium.
Start finding the money. Westerly provinces aren't going to put out any money if it's your show, your rules, timetable uncertain, wailing included. End of story.
Or, you can take your "false injured feelings" off from around your eyes and look at a cooperative, market-assured, joint-cost effort. The timing is good within the Kyoto context to start constructing power grids to help Canada meet targets, as well as to improve the quality of the air.
Don't like that? Fine. Ontario has already given approval for one new nuclear complex. It's considering installation of new gas-fired facility. Nuclear is clean, quiet, and about the same cost as other alternatives over the lifespan, and more can be built. Believe me, when Ontarians have a "no electricity" versus "nuclear or gas" decision, there's no contest. Time to delivery is about the same ... assuming cooperative (versus your going it alone) approaches.
And, as you say, Manitoba is considering or constructing hydro capacity for resale to Ontario or even south of the border.
So what's the matter? If you don't want to serve more westerly markets, fine. That's your choice. Just don't go around falsely and naively accusing everyone of "snookering" NL. Be comepetitive, do something, and for Pete's sake, stop the wailing and moaning! DO SOMETHING!
So nice to Ontario wade in - you are sucking the money from all parts of Canada - you rent lodging to the Federal Government - in this age of IT spread the federal wealth. 10% for each province.
As for the fishery - Ottawa must pay up for it's mismanagement of this global resource.
Stop whining so much about your auto sector losses - they pale in comparison to the fishery - which is a renewable natural resource - crucified by Ottawa.
As for the hydro-power potential you missed the point Erik - I want it to stay in Labrador - no need to unlock it from anywhere.
Stick up your nuclear and figure out what to do with your waste - similar to the mess you have floating in the air - for Canadians to breathe the success of Ontario.
Tough Mr. Sorenson - stop sucking on our resources teat. Drill your own oil and gas - leave the Grand Banks alone.
Sue your comments to Erik Sorenson are very well said.
This gentleman's province Ontario, or at least the province from which he writes, has been sucking on the teat of Newfoundland and Labrador for far too long, all the while kicking us in the head.
Mr. Sorenson's biases towards NL come out loud and clear in his thread to your blog.
This person can't understand why we want to become mature and do what the rest of Canada has been doing with their resources since the beginning of Confederation 140 years ago, that is have them developed for themselves, be the primary beneficiary, bring in the profits and then donate to Canada's equalization pot. I would only be too happy to reverse how everything is structured presently and be contributing to that pot, instead of accepting funds from it and then having to sport a blackened eye as a result of it. We have never been thanked by the rest of Canada for them taking our resources, getting the profits, then they in turn contributing to the equilization pot, and after which accusing Newfoundland and Labrador of being a drain on the coffers of Ontarians and the rest of Canada. After perpetrating that awful indignity on us, they have then gone on to tell us that we should be towed out to sea and sunk. What a sick race contained in the Central part of Canada.
This gentleman is acting just like columnists from the Globe and Mail and other major newspapers have treated us when Newfoundlanders and Labradorians spoke up and made statements that we wanted our resources to work for us, such as the Voisey Bay Nickel Ore we said "we don't want one spoonful of ore to leave this province without being processed here". That statement sent those newspapers columnists into frenzy and they brought down the wrath of God unto the poor people of this province. They won in the past with those types of actions, since they succeeded in grinding us down to the point where we gave in. IT MUST NOT HAPPEN IN THE CASE OF THE LOWER CHURCHILL OR ANY OTHER RESOURCE THAT COMES UP FOR DEVELOPMENT. WE HAVE TO GROW UP AND DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR OUR PEOPLE and put them on the road to economies for once in our life.
If all the other provinces have the ability to market its resources, so does Newfoundland and Labrador. It doesn't take a whole lot of ability to be able to finance a Golden Egg, such as Lower Churchill hydroelectric energy that every country in the world has a need for. Sue we have the product on the shelf, the need is there for it, so why would we not be able to finance an energy resource that can only be describe as the Queen of all Energy projects. Plus Labrador is known as the Big Land and it has acerage galore to accommodate any and all industries that result from it. Plus Labrador is on the Eastern periphery of North Americal. Don't make us sound stupid. If we can't market such a commodity, maybe it is time that we lie down and die. This is not the dreaded Nuclear Energy, an Energy that would freighten the daylights out of anybody who would contemplate it.
Sue aren't all of our Kyoto points already used by Quebec to give that province a good standing in the anti-pollution war?
I want to thank Dr. Suzuki for his statement he made when he was in the province a couple of weeks ago, he made reference to knowing that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians were mad over the Upper Churchill Contract and the raw deal we received. Thanks Dr. Suzuki!
Your comments to Mr. Sorenson show just exactly how off base your arguments are.
You still haven't explained how you will pay for your version of going it alone on the Lower Churchill. Your argument about Ontario comes from someone who seems to have never heard of economics. You know. Like balance of trade.
Trade.
Economics?
Energy - cheap reliable - renewable = industry.
I have not seen the economics on export - have you?
In this day of global environmental concerns including the reduction of fossil fuel use - it does not take a genius to see what the future value will be and the what the current value is.
Don;t be gutless - identify yourself so we can see who wants to export our future.
Let your name stand for the record.
Anonymous touches on a point that is an especially sore spot with me. Yes, Quebec reaps all, or essentially all, of the carbon credits generated in Newfoundland and Labrador. . Most galling is that the value of those credits from the Churchill, Star Lake and generators on the Humber and the Exploits are based on the toxic brew discharged from that horrible embarrassment we have in Holyrood.
As Kyoto gets into full swing, a major potential source of carbon credits will be green spaces, particularly forests where trees soak up vast amounts of CO2 and convert it back into oxygen. The terms used to describe this are forest carbon credits and the forests as carbon sinks. In this connection too , Quebec will be the chief beneficiary since all , or nearly all, of our forest land is either owned by or leased to Kruger and Abitibi, Quebec corporations.
Thinking a bout the passivity of Newfoundlanders in allowing all this to happen is enough to drive one around the bend.
Well, isn't that enough to turn your stomach, so typical of the old WASP mentality that still dominates the Upper Canada establishment despite the touted multi-cultural tapestry, and where the arrogance is exceeded only by the ignorance. In that Lord Simcoe view of Canada, the rest of us exist only by virtue of the honour granted us to be able to serve our betters. Comments by erik sorenson illustrate well the rot that is at the heart of the nation and why it is that Canada will never be more than a conglomerate of disparate entities. Our tragedy is that we allowed ourselves to get dragged into the mess against our better judgment.
PS. I posted this earlier but it didn't go through.
There's my name for what difference it makes to your answer.
So now that you have that, perhaps you can explain how you will pay for the huge project without bankrupting the province. What industries will come here and at what price?
So far every time I asked those simple questions you blocked the comment.
maybe you can try answering it for a change instead of just spewing out some sort of nonsense about Ontario.
Robert Hockney - What a silly argument you present. How did Quebec, Ontario, Alberta or any other province of Canada get to finance any of their resources. We will finance ours in the same way that any other province finances its resources for development, no differnt. And I bet you almost anything, there was no resource presented by any province with more beneficial assets attached to it than the what the Lower Churchill Hydroelectric energy project has to offer. It is a resource that every country in this world wishes it could get its hands on. So there you have it, a resource which has a wide appeal for its cleanliness factor, a resource which is renewable and a resource which is coveted by all of North America to sustain existing industry and to atrract new industry.
Why do we need to give away that resource? All we have to do is advertise that it is not up for grabs by anyone and that we will be keeping it to generate industry for Labrador, then we will be diluged by industry to buy that clean, renewable energy, next go after the financing and Viola Labrador will be on its way to a wonderful economic future.
How did Quebec, Ontario, Alberta or any other province of Canada get to finance any of their resources. We will finance ours in the same way that any other province finances its resources for development, no differnt.
Very different, actually, if Danny is to be believed.
According to Danny, we live in a fantasy world where someone else — in this case the federal government — will put up all the risk capital, and the province will collect all the benefits.
That is most certainly NOT how other provinces have developed their resources. (And in the case of Alberta's oil and gas, it has certainly NOT been developed by the provincial government under a "go it alone" approach, either.)
Geeze it would be nice if Sue didn't censor most of the posts that contradict the Newfoundland nationalist orthodoxy or ask inconvenient questions.
Sue, how is anyone getting "snookered"?
Not that it's any of SKD's business what Manitoba does, but Manitoba's plan for a very long time has been to cash-crop its hydro and sell it to Ontario. What's wrong with that? Why should Manitoba care two whits about what you have to say about it? Guess what? Not your hydro, or your province, either.
As for the so-called "Lower Churchill", if cash-cropping it is what provides the best annual return to the provincial economy, so be it. Just make sure that the public revenues don't stay in Confederation Building... perhaps some public authority should collect them on behalf of Labrador. Labrador's resource... right?
So nice to Ontario wade in - you are sucking the money from all parts of Canada - you rent lodging to the Federal Government
Sue, the federal government collects more revenue in Ontario than it spends there.
- in this age of IT spread the federal wealth. 10% for each province.
Why 10% for each province?
Why should NL, with four times the population, have the same share as PEI?
Should Labrador then have 50% of provincial government spending?
Why or why not?
nearly all, of our forest land is either owned by or leased to Kruger and Abitibi, Quebec corporations.
It's interesting how Newfoundlanders use the passive mood so much.
Who leased it to them?
Notice that neither Sue nor some other anonymous have actually answered the simple questions.
Ontario developed energy by having a customer to sell it to, whether the customer was in Ontario or in Quebec or in the US.
Sue wants to build the power but won't export it.
So there's the question: who is the customer?
So there's the question: who is the customer?
A dem fine question for Danny "Sinn Fein" Williams!
Robert
How does one sell anything?
First you advertise that you have something for sale. In the case of the Lower Churchill Hydroelectric Energy, we know that the two most populous nations on Earth are being developed. We know they are looking for all types of commodities.
We know that Ontario and other places westward are looking for energy to sustain existing industries and fuel new industries.
Robert we can fuel that new industry in Labrador just as well as Ontario can. If Ontario doesn't have the energy to fuel new industry, well then industry will look for a home elsewhere. Why can't Labrador be the new home with its great renewable hydroelectric source? Robert can you tell me why Labrador is not capable of housing industry? Also if your answer is yes to Labrador being able to house industry, well then Newfoundland and Labrador will be able to raise the financing on the assets that it has a great renewable energy and the space for industry to flourish, with those factors industry will come to Labrador to utilize that energy source and Newfoundland and Labrador will be able to raise the financing.
Why are we always told by others that we can't accommodate industry? Is it because your province is so covetous that you covet everything, even our resources?
Robert we can fuel that new industry in Labrador just as well as Ontario can.
Nope. Because thanks to decades of ignoring, exploiting, and passing the buck, Labrador still doesn't have the transportation infrastructure that even Newfoundland does.
The power would have to be massively cheap — that is, subsidized by everyone else — to overcome transportation (and other) costs.
If Ontario doesn't have the energy to fuel new industry, well then industry will look for a home elsewhere. Why can't Labrador be the new home with its great renewable hydroelectric source?
What industries? Who populates these industries? What are the other raw materials for these industries? Where do they come from? How do they get to Labrador? How to the finished products get back out?
Also if your answer is yes to Labrador being able to house industry, well then Newfoundland and Labrador will be able to raise the financing
Then why does Danny The Great want that financing co-signed by the taxpayers of all of Canada?
Is it because your province is so covetous that you covet everything, even our resources?
Let's assume — and it's a big assumption, but try telling that to a Newfoundland nationalist — that Ontario "covets" other provinces' resources.
How is that any worse than Newfoundland coveting Labrador's resources? Or Nunavut's? Or Greenland's?
Anonymous:
Who said we can't accommodate industry? That's another one of those little pieces of sheer nonsense that some people try to make into an argument.
If you want to talk about that go ahead. You'll be talking to yourself.
Neither you nor Sue can answer the very simple question: who will buy the power that pays for the $9 billion Lower Churchill if none of the power is exported?
How many major projects like say Sue's aluminium smelter are ready to build a major project anywhere in the province?
How many would it take to pay for the Lower Churchill?
These are basic questions. All you seem to be offering instead of information is some sort of nonsense about inferiority. The only people who talk about inferiority are people like Sue and Danny.
Robert
There are billions of dollars out there in the investment community that would love to have some place to park its money that would give them the security of the Lower Churchill Hydroelectric Project operating industry in Labrador. I listen to Report on Business TV and we listeners are told daily of the hoarding of cash by Corporations because they have no place to spend it. And let me tell you I have seen and heard of Corporations who have parked money in far more dangerous and less secure places than Newfounndland and Labrador and on far more frivilous projects.
So how come Sue doesn't explain her ideas?
Why is it that now some anonymous person who is probably Sue must make things up in order to defend Sue.
In the past she just stopped commenting whenever anyone asked a question she couldn't answer. Sometimes she just censored comments she didn't like, then bitched about Danny "threatening" her. Sometimes she moaned about being an unpaid volunteer.
Bottom line is: Sue doesn't have any information to back up her claims.
Her silence is her answer.
I am one anonymous who posts on Sue's Blog and I am not Sue. My last post was on February 20, 2007 9:20 AM just prior to your last post of February 20, 2007 11:00 AM
An anonymous coward with the courage of their convictions wrote:
There are billions of dollars out there in the investment community that would love to have some place to park its money that would give them the security of the Lower Churchill Hydroelectric Project operating industry in Labrador.
Where is this capital?
In what industry?
In what jurisdiction?
I listen to Report on Business TV and we listeners are told daily of the hoarding of cash by Corporations because they have no place to spend it.
Remind me to sell any investments I might have in such corporations!
And let me tell you I have seen and heard of Corporations who have parked money in far more dangerous and less secure places than Newfounndland and Labrador and on far more frivilous projects.
There should be a well-beaten path, then.
Why isn't there one?
WJM you said 'Remind me to sell any investments I might have in such corporations"!
I will leave that chore up to you. I have enough problems keeping away from those rougue investments myself, I wouldn't want to be responsible for your investments. There are many stocks on the TSE that I would never venture into, but I would be only too happy to invest in the Lower Churchill Hydroelectric Energy, a renewable energy, if it ever showed up on the TSE. A RENEWABLE energy stock would be a much more reliable investment than the NON-RENEWALE oil and gas stocks that are offered on the TSE.
I would love to have the capital to invest and develop the Lower Churchill Hydro Electric Energy Project or to be part of a consortium, I am sure I wouldn't be making a bad investment, because the RENEWABLE energy that will result out of the Lower Churchill Energy project is craved by all of North America.
WJM how do you know there isn't already a well beaten path to Premier Williams' door vying to do that project? I believe I have already heard him say that there were a number of parties interested a few months ago. But I hope he is only interested in some party teaming up with this province to finance the project, and to leave the energy here in Labrador to be utilized. I am sure the financier will be well rewarded and so will Labrador and the rest of the province.
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